Two for the price of one original photograph ......... St Margaret’s Church, Plumstead in the summer of 1905

Now this may seem rather indulgent to offer up two identical pictures of the same spot but of course there is a tad difference and that comes from the success of the artist in colouring the original image.

I have no idea if both were issued at the same time or the coloured version was a second bite at the market, issued a little later when earlier sales were flagging.

But it is a nice example of the commercial drive of the company and other post card manufacturer’s who were prepared to reuse a photograph as many times as possible.

In the collection I have two of rural Chorlton-cum-Hardy which are identical except that one contains the seasonal message “A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year”

Picture; St Margaret’s Church, 1905, from the set Woolwich Town & City, by Tuck and Sons, courtesy of Tuck DB, https://www.tuckdb.org/

Turning off Plumstead High Street and finding a Saxon Church .....

Now you would think that I would have known the church of St Nicholas.

After all I worked on the High Street and both our Jillian and Elizabeth once lived close by.

But I never did and for that I am a bit ashamed given that it has a history which dates back to 960 just 80 odd years after Alfred burned his cakes, bits date from the twelfth century and its tower went up sometime during the 1660s.

And looking at this picture from 1915 the casual observer might well think nothing much has changed, which is a tribute to the restoration work done in 1959 following enemy action during the last world war  which caused severe damage to the structure.

So that is about it.

I could have included a modern picture to match our 1915 one, but if you live in Plumstead or have lived in Plumstead you will know what it looks like, and for everyone else I suggest you turn to page 94 of Woolwich Through Time which has a then and now set of photographs.

And that really is it leaving me to wait for a comment from our Elizabeth and Colin and my old friend Tricia.

Location; Plumstead

Picture; St Nicholas Church, Plumstead, 1915, from Woolwich Through Time





*Woolwich Through Time, Kristina Bedford, 2014

Of bandstands, demolished churches and a closed pub, Plumstead Common in 1915

Now every good park should have a bandstand.

They were after all the centre of many parks in the late 19th and early 20th centuries which reflected both civic pride and that long history of listening to music in the open air.

I remember the one in Telegraph Hill Park which by the time I knew it had become a sad and forlorn thing.

It had long ago lost its cast iron pillars and roof and was pretty much just an abandoned lump which you past on the way through the park to school.

Now I have discovered an old post card of the bandstand and I think at some stage I will write about it.

But in the meantime I have fastened on another which stood on Plumstead Common.

It must be a full thirty years since I was last there and of course back then I wasn’t looking out for bandstands.

As I remember we called in at the pub on the edge of the Common.

All of which is a lead in to the picture which dates from around 1915, and shows the band stand, and St Margaret’s which was completed in 1859 and lasted just over a century and a bit. It closed in 1968 and was demolished in 1974.

I rather think the bandstand might also have gone and according to one of my sister the pub has also shut up shop.

Well that as they say is how things changes.

Picture; courtesy of Kristina Bedford.

Ms Bedford’s book on Woolwich Through Time is published by Amberley 

From Plumstead to Croydon via Canada, and the Western Front ........ with a sideways trip to Rochdale

I am looking at a picture of Alfred Frederick Shrub, taken in the studios of Joseph Gothard.

The story of this young man is a fascinating one, which like many of his generation ended on the Western Front during the Great War.

The photograph belongs to my old friend David Harrop, who because he knows I grew up in Woolwich, thought I would be interested.

And so, began a journey across the early 20th century, taking me by stages to Canada, Croydon and on to New Zealand and Rochdale, and linking together the young Alfred with his photographer.

On the surface there was not much to go on.

The address of the studio was 45 Plumstead Road, which was that short street between Burrage Road and Maxey Road facing the Royal Arsenal.

Sadly, none of the properties still exist, and judging from the historical records Mr. Gothard did not linger over long  in Woolwich.

Nor would it seem did Alfred’s family.  I know they were here by 1900, because of the inscription on the back of the photograph, and the census record for 1901 which has them at 9 Nyanza Street, but they may not have stayed much longer.

And the clue is suggested by the admission book of Plumstead Road school which has Alfred attending from November till just December 1902.  There after the next official record is of them living in Croydon in 1911.

But it is the Canadian connection which has yet to be fully researched, because I know from Alfred’s military records that he was born in Braccebridge, Winnipeg, in Manitoba in 1896, which it turns out is incorrect.

Braccebridge is in Ontario, and was the first of the mistakes on his military records.

I suppose the family must have spent time there, and given that his father was a general labourer Mr. Shrub may have been working on a civil engineering project, or they have just taken a chance on the New World.

Either way they were back by 1900 to have the picture taken in Mr. Gothard’s studio and for some one to write on the back of the photograph, “This his Alfred Frederick Shrub 4 years  old 1900”, and for some else to add “WW1 Casualty, The Queens Regiment Pte No S/5792”

The military records show that he enlisted in the October of 1914,  aged 18, and died on March 18th, 1915.

But here there is a slight confusion given that a Private Alfred Frederick Shrube was present at the wedding of James Edward Lawrence, also a soldier and Eva Amelia Shrub on September 2nd, 1917, at Christ Church, Croydon.

It may be a coincidence, but our Alfred had a sister by that name and the family had been in Croydon six years earlier.

It is one of those twisty turny stories I like, made that bit more interesting because his mother was born in India in 1869.

And because the search for Mr. Gothard was equally messy.  He came from Yorkshire, was in Norfolk in 1891, listing his occupation as photographer, a decade later was in Plumstead, only to move again to Rochdale in 1911, with his New Zealand wife and child.

All of which leaves me to say I doubt we have heard the end of either families.

Not least because my friend Tricia has promised  to go looking n the archives, down at Greenwich.

Location; pretty much all over

Pictures; picture postcard of Alfred Frederick Shrub, 1900 from the collection of David Harrop

Back on Plumstead Common in the summer of 1905

This is one of 12 picture post cards which Tuck and Sons issued in the summer of 1905, and I rather like it.

So as I have more in the collection I rather think I will show some more over the next few days.

Picture; Plumstead Common, 1905, from the set Woolwich Town & City, by Tuck and Sons, courtesy of Tuck DB, https://www.tuckdb.org/

I never thought of Plumstead ............. taking the horse out for a jolly and a thank you to Tricia

Now there is nothing better when a story gets a second lease of life.*

And so here we are back with those soldiers somewhere not very far away from Well Hall.

I had at first thought we were in Woolwich sometime during the Great War.  It was the challenges laid down by my old friend David Harrop who had bought the picture post card and was waiting for it to drop through the letter box for a second time in a century.

And when it did it offered up not the Great War but sometime a little earlier.
it was sent by Miss Elsie Crane to 59 St Peter’s Villa, Risbygate Bury St Edmunds with the simple sentiment of “with love and kisses to all you at home, best wishes.”

The distributors were A & G Taylor who modestly claimed to be “The biggest photographers in the World” and judging by the number of picture postcards in the archives and for sale there does seem to be some truth in the claim.

They had studios on Regent Street, and Queen Victoria Street in London and within two decades of being founded in the 1860s had branches all over the country.

One source suggests they closed down in 1903 which I suppose gets us a little closer to when then men posed with their horses.

I haven’t found Miss Crane yet and I think nu 59 has gone but I think I now know where our soldiers were and that is down to Tricia who also took up the challenge.

“I have been racking my brains out over the images you posted concerning your above blog. The houses looked familiar but the surroundings didn't. 

I think now I might have found the location, I do believe the houses in the background are Brookhill Road Plumstead, the larger houses being Dundus Terrace but the same road. 

The houses are still there so is the brick wall & I have found some evidence that the ground opposite may have had some military connection. 

I have attached my evidence together with your original postcard but also if you could google maps for Brookhill Road Plumstead you will see both style of houses that are in your photo. Have a look Andrew & see what you think.”

And that as a certain criminologist would say is that ................ thank you Tricia and I look forward to the next mystery/story.

Location, Plumstead, London

Picture; “Army Service Corps, Horse Artillery, Woolwich” from the collection of David Harrop and other photographs sourced by Tricia Lesley

Wishing you well ........... postcards from Woolwich, Greenwich and Eltham for the summer ..... nu 3 Plumstead

A short series with few words looking at the postcards we sent from Woolwich, Greenwich and Eltham.

Our card was sent from Charlton on Sunday August 3 in the last summer before the Great War to a Mrs Greensmith of 14 Greening Street Abbey Wood.  The sender left their name off the card, but they were pleased that “Mrs G” had sent some kind letters and were sorry that “you couldn’t get a trap they are spoken for.” 

Sill it had been “a lovely day” and there was an invitation for Mrs G to come down any tine.

Location; Plumstead, circa 1913,

Picture; Plumstead, circa 1913, Tuck and Sons, courtesy of Tuck DB, https://tuckdb.org/

The Manchester soldier outside Burrage Grove school in 1915

Outside Burrage Grove school in 1915

Now I rather think this photograph will set off a trail of comments.

We are on Burrage Grove sometime around 1915 and the picture comes from the George Davison collection.

George Davison was born in Manchester, enlisted in the Royal Artillery and for part of 1915 and again 1918 was stationed in Woolwich.

I can’t be sure but I don't think this is Mr Davison.

What fascinates me is the way the picture draws together a number of different stories, not least the fact that

I grew up not far from Burrage Grove and will have friends who may attended the school.

And here is one of those first lessons in dealing with photographs from the past.

Knowing that George was from Manchester I misread the name above the gate and went off on a fruitless search for Burnage Grove School.

When this drew a blank I looked again at the picture and found the name of a the photographer who had premises at 40 Plumstead Road, Woolwich and with that came Burrage Grove School built by the London School Board sometime after 1872.

Now this I know because the London School Board was established in 1870 and the OS map of 1872 does not yet show the school, that said it will have been built sometime during the next two decades, and I have every confidence someone will come up with a date.

All of which just leaves our soldier mounted on his horse outside the building.

Burrage Grove, 1872

Looking at the photograph and the map of 1872 Burrage Grove has changed dramatically although the pub on the corner is still there.

So it begs the question of why focus on this obscure picture of a place long gone?

Well I think because like all lost images this one deserves to come out of the shadows.

In time I will find out more about the school along with the circumstances behind this particular picture and perhaps even who he was.

I know that George Davison spent some time in Woolwich in 1915 and returned briefly on his way to France.  It was on this second period in London that he hastily produced a will which was witnessed by two of his colleagues.

It may also be that he spent another spell here in 1917.  There are no letters to his wife for this year and we know that she spent time in London living near him.

But that is to stray into speculation so that just use leaves us with this picture of a soldier from Manchester in Plumstead sometime during the Great War.

And just after the story was posted Phil contacted me with this, "I've had a search through the British Libraries online local newspaper archives about the school for you. 

The earliest reference that I could find is from the 12/09/1878 with references the 'Burrage Grove Board School' in Plumstead donating £2 10s to the relief fund for the families of the deceased of the liner Princess Alice which was lost in the Thames with the loss of 600 lives following a collision. 

That hopefully helps narrow down an opening date."

And so it does, thank you Phil.  All I need now is some one who who knows who the chap on the horse was.

Picture; from the collection of George Davison, courtesy of David Harrop and Burrage Grove from the OS map of London 1862-72, courtesy of Digital Archives Association, http://www.digitalarchives.co.uk/